Why Doesn’t the US Get to Have High Speed Rail?

Vikram Bath

Vikram Bath is the pseudonym of a former business school professor living in the United States with his wife, daughter, and dog. (Dog pictured.) His current interests include amateur philosophy of science, business, and economics. Tweet at him at @vikrambath1.

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92 Responses

  1. InMD says:

    I actually wonder if the case for this type of massive infrastructure project won’t become even more difficult in the post covid world than if was before. Now that we’ve proven white collar work can be done remotely who will be riding these trains often enough to sustain them?

    An interesting microcosm is happening with Maryland’s purple line struggles, which is a light rail connecting the DC suburbs. The case for it (pre-covid anyway) was strong, the purpose clear (taking pressure off the Capitol beltway), and yet its suffered large cost overruns and litigation delays. Recently the contractor quit and a new one is being sought. A $250 million dollar settlement with the old contractor is being called a win. Unlike high speed rail the purple line will eventually get done but it makes me chuckle every time I see that map. And I’m actually a huge fan of the idea in theory! In practice though? We’ll have electric airliners first.Report

    • superdestroyer in reply to InMD says:

      The United States does not have the legal system, the political system, or the management skills to take on big projects. Any project that takes more than 90 days is doomed to cost over runs, growing public opposition, and failure. Given all the constraints that are placed on any large scale project in the U.S., no one and no group has the management skill set to success. See Covid-19 responee as a good example.Report

  2. DensityDuck says:

    “Why doesn’t the USA have a high-speed rail system?” We do.

    *****

    “And why do the same people balk at doing the same for health care?”

    Because it never seems to be just health care. It’s a-whole-raft-of-other-stuff-too.

    And yeah, there’s “we don’t want to raise taxes just to have the government pay for stuff”, but there’s also “we don’t want to raise taxes to pay for health care and antismoking campaigns, and transgender bathroom studies, and Housing-Insecurity Support, and expansions of the FDA regulatory bureaucracy, and and and.

    I really think you could have sold Medicare For All more easily to Republicans than the PPACA. “It’s Medicare, with premiums adjusted by age and based on what everyone’s paying for their insurance right now.”

    *****

    “A graphic has been floating around Twitter for more than a year showing a cost-to-coast connected high-speed rail system in the United States.”

    AYFKM

    I love how that graphic shows three separate train lines going to Miami. Is Miami really that big of a travel destination? What I think is happening is that the people who draw maps like this are very much into soothing, satisfying thing, and drawing lines on that big ol’ peninsula right there is just so soothing and satisfying that they can’t help but do it a bunch of times. Meanwhile there’s no train that goes directly from Seattle to San Francisco, you have to change trains a hundred fifty miles inland. (Also there’s no direct route between DC and Denver, despite these being the two most important cities to the Federal Government.) That map is purest fantasy, just a matter of drawing lines on a map in a way that feels good.Report

    • InMD in reply to DensityDuck says:

      One of the tougher things about American culture is our seeming inability to have well run public services for their own sake. No one can ever resist the temptation to use them as a vehicle for their own ideological projects. From abstinence only sex ed to teaching 7 year olds that a penis is a social construct to the MVA as ground zero for showing the world how the labor force should really be run. The nice things go right down the toilet.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to DensityDuck says:

      If you want to propose the idea that we could have big infrastructure projects, if only they weren’t clogged with liberal social projects, you would need to support that argument with examples of conservative infrastructure projects which were free of the social projects.

      Like, is there a Republican high speed rail proposal? A Republican local broadband proposal? A Republican proposal for local subway or light rail?

      If we look at the times when they held all the branches of government, would we see smart, efficient infrastructure proposals without social projects?Report

    • Jaybird in reply to DensityDuck says:

      Is there high speed between LA and Vegas yet?

      I think that that is the A+ #1 proof of concept that needs to be established. Can you get from here to there in a straight line in a matter of minutes?

      Forget San Fran to Seattle. Can you get from the Big City to the Playground?Report

  3. DensityDuck says:

    “Well what SHOULD we do then” Well. Ten billion would have put BART all the way through San Jose to the airport, allowing the entire Central Valley to stop clogging the Sunol Grade and instead take the train to work in Mountain View (and to one of the world’s most popular airports for tech-industry travellers). A BART connection to SJC would have moved more people in five years than the Cal-HSR would have moved in its operational lifetime. But it’s just a boring ol’ poky tramway expansion, not a Big Zoomy Train Like They Have In Europe, so I can see why the Big Zoomy Train fetishists didn’t like it.Report

  4. Swami says:

    In a huge country with cheap air travel and 70 plus mph roads criss crossing the nation, what is the argument FOR high speed rail? Because the French have it?

    The US seems to have made the wise decision to use flight and cars for people and focus the rail on freight.Report

    • superdestroyer2 in reply to Swami says:

      There also the problem that train depot are in the heart of city when many of the jobs are in the suburbs. Why take a train into a town that still requires a car to get around?Report

  5. Saul Degraw says:

    Universal healthcare is not achieved for somewhat different reasons than highspeed rail.

    However, there is one thing that I think makes highspeed rail and other things harder in the United States is that we have a fetish for hyper local contol and decentralized power. This largely is associated with the right but there are some ways it is exists on the left as well. The reason high speed rail failed in California is that every community from SF to LA seemed to have some kind of veto power over the parts of the project that went through their community. This goes beyond the municipal level and to the neighborhood level.

    More centralization would make these things more affordable and provide fewer veto points.Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      This is certainly a large part of it, and it may be true for UHC as well.Report

      • InMD in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

        It is but there’s a curious question of cause and effect to be explored. Part of it is just simple path dependency. This is the big one with healthcare, where decisions that made sense long ago hold us back but are also frustratingly hard to untangle.

        For infrastructure though NIMBYism exists for a reason. People’s entire lives and livelihoods in America are tied up in real estate and it’s natural to use the avenues available to defend that interest. It also isn’t like the government has a great record of compensation and accommodation or just plain being captured by third party interests to bulldoze the little guy. You get the whole Kehoe v. New London thing for example.Report

        • Oscar Gordon in reply to InMD says:

          Yeah, actual just compensation, that isn’t simply the bare market rate, but takes into account the realities of relocation, etc. is probably unsustainable for something like that. Add to that the fact that state governments aren’t allowed to ignore federal environmental laws, or even their own laws, just for the sake of public infrastructure, means lots of ability to gum up the works.Report

        • Saul Degraw in reply to InMD says:

          It goes beyond real estate though, my immigrant friends who became U.S. citizens are are allowed to vote for. I can think of no other country that allows so many offices to be political.Report

          • Oscar Gordon in reply to Saul Degraw says:

            Is this content missing something? It makes no sense.Report

          • InMD in reply to Saul Degraw says:

            We are still very close to and living with the legacy of a time when there was no strong central authority in the United States. Huge parts of the country weren’t even fully settled when the foundations for a lot of this stuff was being set up in the old world. In that context it makes sense to have a strong tradition of local democracy.

            I’d be curious how Canada does with infrastructure but even they may benefit from having only 2 or 3 big population centers, one of which operates with a high degree of autonomy. Fewer places to go and fewer toes to step on to get there.Report

            • Brent F in reply to InMD says:

              The Canadian constitution was written for the railway age, so even in a document that is heavily decentralizing, the Feds have pretty much absolute authority over interprovincial transport.

              At the local level, municipal authorities are entirely at the beck and call of the Provincial governments and they both more aggressively amalgamate cities and impose regional transport authorities as necessary.Report

      • Saul Degraw in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

        I think the bigger issue for healthcare is that people are scared of losing what they have through private insurance/employment and there is a devils in the details kind of thing. There are numerous paths to universal healthcare but one chunk of the left seems obsessed with medicare for all as the hill to die on with an NHS style system. The UK’s NHS is unique though.

        But it is really the veto point.Report

        • Oscar Gordon in reply to Saul Degraw says:

          Agreed, insisting upon NHS style UHC just makes everyone think of the VA system in the US, which is the closest analog.

          And while I love having access to the VA system in an emergency (e.g. both my wife and I find ourselves unemployed), we do not want it as the primary system, because it is riddled with problems.

          I’m partial to something like the Swiss system, myself.Report

          • greginak in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

            The Swiss system has a lot going for it. It takes our path dependence in the most likely way to get a UHC. Alas it has been decided by enough people that america will never learn anything from successful foreign examples. I wish the left wasn’t so set on M4A even though that would be an improvement on what we have.Report

            • LeeEsq in reply to greginak says:

              The American Left is focused on M4A because it is Canadian and a lot of the American Left romanticizes Canada as what America would be if it was a kinder, gentler place. Basically, their ideal America is basically Canada but with ten times the population and generally better weather.Report

              • Susara Blommetjie in reply to LeeEsq says:

                Isn’t ‘Canada but with better weather’ most people in the world’s idea of the ideal country?Report

              • Brent F in reply to LeeEsq says:

                Bernie’s M4A is way more aggressive than the Canada Health Act, which leaves a lot of things to private insurance. Its also way more centralized, all the CHA does is put up a huge sum of money if provincial health plans agree to some broadbased mandates.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Saul Degraw says:

          Did Obamacare make Health Care better/more accessible to a majority of voters?

          Let’s say my measuring stick is nothing more than “are you better off now than you were 10 years ago?”

          If a majority of people answer “yes”, then I think that “socialized medicine” is achievable.

          If a majority of people answer “no”, then I think that it is not.

          Hell, swap out “people” for “voters”.

          Now, if you want to argue “it’s not about whether people *FEEL* anything. It’s about the MEASURABLE LIVES SAVED BY OBAMACARE!”, then we need a chart or something.

          If the answers to both questions are “meh, the numbers are good-ish but underwhelming at the end of the day”, then making a huge argument for the moral importance of THIS PLAN, THIS TIME, will have an even uphiller battle. “No! Seriously! This time it’ll work!”Report

          • greginak in reply to Jaybird says:

            You might be amazed to learn there have been all sorts of graphs and charts showing the number of uninsured people going way down due to the ACA. They were all over the place for years. Easy to google.

            Yes i know standard answer 1A is “what does health insurance have to do with health care?” That was a good one for trying to get a convo off track.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to greginak says:

              “Did this improve the lives of a majority of people?”

              “There were graphs and charts showing the number of uninsured people going down!”

              “That doesn’t answer the original question.”

              “Quit trying to take the conversation off track.”Report

            • Oscar Gordon in reply to greginak says:

              The ACA did not impact my life at all. It’s nice to know that more people are able to get insurance, but the ACA was targeted at a specific demographic that I am not part of.

              Ergo, I gain no direct benefit from the ACA.

              As a matter of fact, the ACA only directly benefited a minority of people.Report

              • Stillwater in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                You wrote upthread that if you and your wife lose your private insurance your default is the VA healthcare system. If not for that safety net (heh) would you still say Obamacare, and access to private insurance via the exchanges specifically, didn’t positively impact your life?Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Stillwater says:

                Since it’s inception? No, it hasn’t impacted anything. Even if I didn’t have the VA as a fall back, the ACA has not impacted my life in a positive way, because we weren’t in danger of being unemployed.

                Now, if my insurance was not tied to employment (and I don’t think it should), the ACA would have had an immediate positive impact.Report

              • Stillwater in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Even if I didn’t have the VA as a fall back, the ACA has not impacted my life in a positive way, because we weren’t in danger of being unemployed.

                Alrighty then! 🙂Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                “Food stamps don’t benefit me in any way. I see all these people every day in my grocery store using them, and maybe it makes their lives better, I dunno, but I can say definitely that food stamps have no benefit for me or my grocery store whatsoever!”Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                “What do you mean we have to convince people to vote for our Universal Food Program before we are actually able to implement it?”Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Do you really not understand the question asked, or are you just being disingenuous for the lulz?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Do you really not understand how the ACA improved your life?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                “It was so friggin’ great! If you can’t understand it, that’s *YOUR* problem! Also, we need to replace it because it sucks.”Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                For the sake of argument, let’s say no, I don’t understand.

                It did not provide me a path to gain insurance, and it did not lower the cost of insurance for my family.

                So, in (let’s be generous) 50 words or less, explain how the ACA directly benefits a person who has a (relatively) secure job with employer provided health insurance and a skillset that is in-demand enough to be confident that any employment gap will be short lived.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Here is how the ACA directly improved your life:

                By forcing lower-income people* to spend money on insurance, it kept them from moving into your neighborhood and having their kids go to school with your kids.

                Q.E.D.

                *not going to define thisReport

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Because it allows people to spend money on something other than hospital bills.
                It also allows people to regain their health when they otherwise would have died or stopped working.

                Poor health outcomes isn’t just an emotional problem; Its a problem for the economy. When a person stops working, they stop producing wealth and stop consuming.

                These people produce wealth and buy stuff from the people who hire the people who hire you.

                So yeah, the ACA indirectly put money in your pocket and contributed to your continued employment, no matter what you do.

                The biggest lobbyists for food stamps are grocers and the ag industry because they grasp this.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                That’s 110 words, and you failed to give me a direct benefit in even 110 words.

                Now, me, as a person who is curious regarding policy and it’s downstream effects, I get all this. I understand just fine what benefit the ACA provides to society at large, and not just to the people who need to access the exchanges (and I would take it further, outlaw using health insurance as an employment benefit, and move us to something even closer to the Swiss system).

                But the person who isn’t even remotely curious regarding downstream effects, you probably lost them in the first two lines.

                Which gets to the larger question, how confident are you that someone can craft a short message that appeals to them regarding the ACA? Failing that, how confident are you that such a voter is a small enough demographic that you can afford to not appeal to them effectively?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                I’m not saying that everyone understands downstream effects, I’m just saying they exist.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Absolutely they do, but the point being made is that selling people a thing based upon downstream effects is often very hard to do, and supporters should not be surprised when others don’t jump on board based solely upon those downstream effects.Report

  6. Doctor Jay says:

    I don’t know why construction is so much more expensive here than elsewhere. It is definitely a factor.

    AND, the US is really, really big. Which makes air travel a better answer for a lot of it.

    For instance, I go from SF to Seattle fairly often. That’s a 2 hour flight. Best case, I think it would be a 5 hour train ride, it might be more like 7. I’ll take the plane, thanks.

    HSR would be good in the East – Boston to Washington, or perhaps Richmond, etc. Maybe it works NY-Chicago and DC – Atlanta, too. But I’m not seeing it cross-country.Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to Doctor Jay says:

      Also mountains. HSR needs long, flat, straight runs, and there is no way to do that through the Rockies without boring under them.Report

      • LeeEsq in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

        The country that invented HSR is not known for it’s long flat terrain. Japan’s mountains aren’t puny things either but substantial ranges.Report

        • Oscar Gordon in reply to LeeEsq says:

          You need to look at a topographical map of Japan and compare it to the map of the Rockies.

          1) Japan is very narrow, so going east to west is not a long distance compared to the Rockies. Seriously, the western ranges are wide, tall, and are composed of some very tough geology.

          2) Japan has a large number of rather shallow passes/valleys going east-west. There are a number through the Rockies, but they are currently occupied by privately owned rail lines and major highways. They are also not very straight and have considerable grade (freight trains go slow).Report

        • Michael Cain in reply to LeeEsq says:

          I believe that the large majority of Japan’s bullet train track runs within a few miles of the coast, between the ocean and the interior mountain ranges. Far enough inland that they can lay out relatively flat straight runs connected by big sweeping curves. Not far enough inland to have to deal with the mountains much. Unsurprisingly, that’s also where most of the population lives.

          I understand high-speed rail is limited to a maximum 4% grade and preferably under 2.5%. The Bakersfield-Palmdale stretch of the California HSR route calls for 11 miles of tunnel and 15 miles of elevated roadbed to keep the grade below 3%. Who knows what it would take to get HSR across the Sierra Nevada; where I-80 crosses the grade averages 6% for 40 miles.Report

    • For instance, I go from SF to Seattle fairly often. That’s a 2 hour flight. Best case, I think it would be a 5 hour train ride, it might be more like 7. I’ll take the plane, thanks.

      Flying time between any of the major metros in the West — excluding El Paso — is less than three hours, mostly less than two and a half. I used to leave Denver on the 7:00 am flight, spend the day on the Coast in meetings or doing setup, fly back to Denver on the 6:00 pm flight, and sleep in my own bed. Given the mountain ranges that HSR would have to cross or bypass, it will never be time-competitive with that.Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to Doctor Jay says:

      America is big and taking a train from New York to Los Angeles is not something most people will do. We have areas where we can have HSR will work as a regional network though like the ACELA corridor or California, Texas, and Florida.

      HSR tends to work the best when you can have a bunch of major destinations in a relatively straight line of sorts.Report

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to LeeEsq says:

        Kinda defeats the high speed part, though, unless the major destinations are far enough part that the train can get up to speed and stay there for a while.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Doctor Jay says:

      “I don’t know why construction is so much more expensive here than elsewhere. It is definitely a factor.”

      It might just be expensive because it’s expensive. People keep pointing to the NYC subway and kinda don’t mention how they’re doing cut-and-cover construction in some of the most expensive real estate on the planet.Report

  7. Stillwater says:

    How is France able to provide this for its workers *and* provide cheaper subways for its people? France has a highly unionized workforce. How is France beating us? Why is all of Europe beating us?

    I don’t know.

    Check this out: Why American Costs Are So High (Work-in-Progress)Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to Stillwater says:

      Excellent article, Stillwater. Thanks for the link.Report

    • superdestroyer in reply to Stillwater says:

      Many professions in France such as health care are paid much less than equivalent jobs in the U.S. To look out for some workers, France screws others.Report

    • Slade the Leveller in reply to Stillwater says:

      Money quote:

      Incuriosity is not merely ignorance. Ignorance is a universal trait, people just differ in what they are ignorant about. But Americans are unique in not caring to learn from other countries even when those countries do things better.

      Report

    • With respect to rail specifically, I believe that in all of the rest of the world the rail right-of-way was and remained in the hands of the government. So when the government decided that they wanted to run passenger rail rather than freight, they could make the decision. The US went the private route. So Amtrak trains run at the convenience of the freight companies that own the route. Some of Denver’s commuter rail system will likely never be finished because the BNSF owns right-of-way they seldom use but wants many billions of dollars up front, plus annual fees, to allow usage.Report

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to Michael Cain says:

        This is true, and the laws from ages ago are still in force.

        It is interesting to me how much people go on about how a previous congress can not tie the hands of a future congress, but those rail acts seem impossible to undo.Report

    • Kazzy in reply to Stillwater says:

      This is the sort of analysis I was looking for. Thanks, Still. We should be able to break down the costs of each project and figure out where the money is going and why.

      The next step would then to be figure out IF we should be spending more. The obvious answer seems to be no, we shouldn’t. If other countries can get this done for cheaper, so too should we. BUT, it is possible there are other costs they’re absorbing beyond financial, such quality of the system, infringement upon individual rights (i.e., Can they just take land they want from private owners? If so, do we want that?), equity of access (i.e., Do they have the same laws regarding handicapped access? If not, how does that impact costs? If that lowers costs, do we want that?), etc.Report

      • Swami in reply to Kazzy says:

        Agreed, good article by SW. I think number 8 is the closest to the underlying root cause. Bad institutional incentives. The rest tend to emerge out from there.Report

  8. North says:

    UHC isn’t a complicated question really. Most of the developed world instituted UHC when health care consisted mostly of setting broken limbs, providing stitching and antiseptic environments for wounds to heal and a grab bag of other simple procedures. It was cheap in other words. Then the same path dependency that bedevils us in the US now was on the side of UHC as medical care improved. The best time to institute UHC would have been 50-80 years ago. The next best time is, of course, now. At least with the ACA the process is finally started. The public is already starting to internalize the expectations and assumptions that undergird UHC systems. The next thing to go after should probably be chipping away at the ways the tax system privilege’s employer provided health care.

    As for rail? Frankly I’m dubious it’s ever going to happen or that it even should happen. The US is not geographically well suited to HSR and it’s assuredly not culturally and institutionally congenial for those kinds of projects.Report

    • Brent F in reply to North says:

      We periodically get lack of high-speed trains wailing and gnashing of teeth in Canada as well. The bad geogrpahy and that North America focuses on rail for efficient freight rather than passengers applies equally to us. Unless a train is going to be competitive with an airplane, its not going to happen unless a government decidedsto force it to happen.

      The same doesn’t apply to intra-city rail as public transit as those are more robust north of the borderReport

      • North in reply to Brent F says:

        Where the heck would Canada send HSR? Toronto to Quebec City?? Why bother?Report

        • Brent F in reply to North says:

          The Windsor to Quebec City corridor is in a perpetual state of HSR being studied and rejected. Edmonton to Calgary the same to a lesser extent.Report

          • Oscar Gordon in reply to Brent F says:

            Edmonton-Calgary is a fantastic spot for a run.Report

            • Brent F in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

              Not enough traffic to make it worthwhile unfortunately. Particularly since most people would still need a car once they got there.Report

              • Swami in reply to Brent F says:

                But Vikram isn’t really arguing that trains are “worthwhile”. He is arguing they tickle his aesthetic sensibilities. There is no reasonable way to make Ca. high speed rail more convenient or fast or inexpensive as the $150 per person one hour plane trip currently available. It is a boondoggle and would be at France’s cost levels too. It is just the type of boondoggle that he thinks we should have and could have if it was not as obvious of a boondoggle.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Swami says:

                One thing I’ve noticed is that when you look at cost comparisons between rail and air, rail often wins (fares and time) for shorter runs (under about 150 miles). By the time you factor in time to clear security, and the time needed to get to and from airports, trains are cheaper for about the same total travel time. Plus trains don’t penalize you for last minute bookings that airlines often do.

                That said, those same comparisons never take into account the cost to install or maintain the infrastructure to support those modes of travel.Report

  9. superdestroyer says:

    Look at 25 comments, no one has pointed out the massive amount of resources spent of environmental review and all of the possible gatekeepers that the system creates. In my neighborhood, a$1 million dollar project to build a concrete sidewalk where a dirt path was being worn by people walking to a transit point failed because the consultants and experts consumed the entire $1 million in planning and environmental review.Report

    • Swami in reply to superdestroyer says:

      Good point. If environmentalist extremists can find a way to stop or kill a project, they will. And eventually extremists tend to get in charge of environmental interest groups. I would bet that will be true longer term in France too.Report

  10. LeeEsq says:

    There are lots of reasons why the United States doesn’t have high speed rail or even great transit in many places. Some of these are cultural-political and some of them are not.

    1. America got hit with the car bug very early and very hard. Even as Americans were urbanizing, a lot of people preferred the car over the train or the bus. This eventually led to the United States not really to invest in transit that much after World War II but to focus nearly entirely on cars. Transit was seen as a social service for poor people rather than a general service for anybody.

    2. Eventually the underfunding and refusal to build local or metropolitan area transit led to a refusal to deal with passenger rail on a national level. Many politicians wanted to focus on planes for trips that would be inconvenient by car.

    3. Transit eventually became part of the political culture war. Conservatives and Libertarians started to see all trains as either socialistic or outdated technology. Even today, Reason makes fun of countries like China that invest in HSR rail as outdated technology.

    4. America’s geographic spread doesn’t help. Taking a train from New York to Boston or DC makes sense but not across the coasts or even to Chicago. So we have areas where HSR makes sense like the ACELA corridor, California, or even Florida but not the entire country.

    5. Lack of local transit means and sprawl means that even if we had a HSR network, getting around at your destination means needing a car or at least a rideshare. China invested heavily in subway systems in addition to HSR, so you can get around at your destination when you get off the train.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to LeeEsq says:

      Yeah your first paragraph gets at it nicely.

      Today we see transportation as a mundane and dreary sort of thing we must do, but in the 1920s it was the most sexy and exciting thing going on.
      Check out this mural on the ceiling of the motor court at Bullock’s Wilshire department store in Los Angeles:
      https://www.pinterest.com/pin/385480049328217077/

      LA zoned Wilshire Blvd, specifically around the idea of a “linear city” where people drove up and down to stores rather than walking, and Bullock’s Wilshire had this mural commissioned.

      The mural shows the God Mercury alongside such exciting marvels as dirigibles, steamships, aeroplanes, locomotives and auto-mobiles.

      People like to imagine that it was the automobile, oil, and rubber companies that destroyed public transit, but it wasn’t really. People hated the slow cumbersome trolleys and loved the sexy freedom of zipping along the open road at 40 miles per hour.

      Europe already had big congested cities where freeways would be as difficult to install as HSR is here today, but in the 1920s American cities were young enough and undeveloped enough to where most could build them easily.Report

      • LeeEsq in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        More Americans could afford to own cars a lot faster than people in other developed affluent nations. Mass car ownership didn’t become a thing in West Europe and Japan until well after World War II. It existed in the United States, by the end of the 1920s. Even African-Americans owned cars more often than not in many places. The Green Book would make no sense without mass African-American car ownership. Only Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and South Africa were the same. That is big relatively empty affluent countries.

        There were plans for cities to build subways between the wars and after World War II but they generally got ignored in favor of freeways and suburbia. The decision to build the freeways and suburbia was the most popular top down decision by bureaucrats in human history.Report

    • Philip H in reply to LeeEsq says:

      As someone for whom trains are a hobby – I cosign this completely.Report

  11. LeeEsq says:

    For those interested, you can find a General Electric film from the 1950s called “America is Going Places.” In that movie, GE makes a very good, if self-interested, argument for investing in electric public transit rather than just putting all eggs in the car basket. The arguments for transit have been known for a long time. Cars usually only have one or two people in them at a time, adding more lanes for traffic just leads to more cars but buses, trams, and trains can carry many more people than cars using less space. To bad America didn’t listen.Report

  12. Rufus F. says:

    It’s not just an American thing, if you include “America Junior” (to crib from Homer Simpson). My city has been in a tussle with the province for six years over building light rail transit here. The gist is the city government budgeted it as costing $1 billion and the Liberal provincial leaders agreed, yes, it will cost $1 Billion. BUT we all knew they were on the way out, and once the Progressive Conservative Doug Ford got elected, his people budgeted it as costing $5.5 Billion and cancelled the project. The city said it was funny math- Ford is budgeting for construction AND 30 years of operation. But, then they said Well, it’s definitely going to be more than $1 Billion- everyone knows that! And, in fact, the Laborer’s International Union of North America commissioned their own study and they say it will cost $3.5 Billion.

    So the short version is everyone seems to agree that it will cost more than 1 and less than 5.5 Billion.

    So, now, they’re talking about just building 1/2 the line and letting it go. It’s agreed that they have to build SOMETHING. The rail company has already bought up a bunch of houses along the line and evicted the people renting in them and now they want to demolish them. So, something’s got to get built. My guess is once the Premier is a Liberal again, the cost will go back down and then it will be back on the table, for a few years.

    As someone who could care less either way, it seems to me that there is a liberal urbanist mindset that thinks we will be “left behind” without LRT and a conservative suburbanist mindset that thinks it’s pretty much a slam dunk to save a few billion dollars by cancelling a project that hasn’t been started yet. The punchline is there’s a huge influx of people moving here and all of those groups will be bitching about traffic jams in ten years time.Report

    • Michael Cain in reply to Rufus F. says:

      …and a conservative suburbanist mindset that thinks it’s pretty much a slam dunk to save a few billion dollars by cancelling a project that hasn’t been started yet.

      I am still surprised that the only way to interpret the vote when the seven counties in the Denver Regional Transportation District approved funding for light/commuter rail is, “Denver’s suburbs decided to build a local rail system whose hub happens to be in Denver because that’s where it makes sense to put it.”

      Odd story about how it turned out. Shortly before the coronavirus shut down gatherings, a group of 20 of my former colleagues got together at Denver’s Union Station for a few craft brews and some food. The group was split pretty much down the middle: half had ridden a train in, half had driven. The half who came by train were uniformly pleased with the experience. The other half were all grumpy about the traffic, finding parking, the cost of parking, and walking back to their car in the dark in downtown.

      My wife and I have since moved 60 miles up the road to a different Front Range city for reasons. I may have to become an activist: I can bicycle from our townhouse to downtown in 30 minutes; by bus it’s 20-80, and not at all after 6:00 pm.Report

      • Rufus F. in reply to Michael Cain says:

        Local politics here is probably 50 years behind the rest of the continent, honestly- I was mostly referring to a local dynamic wherein if a councilor in our downtown section votes for something, the councilor in the suburban district will make a show of saving money by voting against it. Light Rail was pretty understandable since it was *billions* we’re talking.

        But they’ll make a big show of voting down bike lanes and such because only the “downtown liberals” want them, and it starts to seem like it’s mostly grandstanding. Especially, since all of them will vote to fund a new sports stadium every few years to attract some international game that brings the city both jack and squat.

        I actually got rid of my car about two years ago because the only places I ever go are work and a bunch of stores I can walk to, so it’s a lot cheaper to ride a bike. Having a car is quicker, but the cost of parking, gas, and insurance wasn’t worth it. But I will say a side benefit is I’m about 15 pounds lighter now.Report

      • LeeEsq in reply to Michael Cain says:

        OT but when ever I hear the term Front Range, I imagine a bunch of random ovens in the mountain wilderness.Report

  13. Rufus F. says:

    Sort of related article on what really killed the streetcar lines:
    https://www.vox.com/2015/5/7/8562007/streetcar-history-demiseReport

    • Swami in reply to Rufus F. says:

      Interesting but I disagree with their analysis. What killed street cars was

      1. Monopoly rent seeking
      2. Technology replacing dedicated rails with flexible IC engines and routes (making not just cars but buses vastly superior)

      Street cars were no longer a good solution, as there were better, more flexible solutions on offer. Street cars became historic or even nostalgic relics for most circumstances.

      The same problem-solving heuristic explains why high speed rail is absurd in most places in the US. It doesn’t solve the transportation issue as economically or as effectively as cars, planes, buses and freight rail. And I seriously doubt it would solve it better at France’s cost levels.Report

  14. Brandon Berg says:

    France has a highly unionized workforce.

    You’d think that from how much they throw their weight around, but France has roughly the same unionization rate as the US, about 10%.Report

    • Marchmaine in reply to Brandon Berg says:

      The Labor Laws and subsidiary bargaining laws are substantially different than the US. The default position isn’t a ‘Right-to-Work’ status, but something closer to a global collective agreement that individual Unions and Companies further negotiate. This was updated in 2017 (IIRC), but still very far from the US starting point for labor.Report

      • Swami in reply to Marchmaine says:

        Which would have the effect of making construction more expensive and less economical all else equal, right?

        The key to this entire post is that Vikram has an “aesthetic” appeal toward top down centralized solutions and some kind of weird sense that we should do (or want to do?) what France does. I would suggest at least questions these assumptions. If memory serves he was one of the ones arguing for the California high speed train to Nowhere. Every reasonable thinker on the planet knew this would be an absurd rent seeking boondoggle. If he wants to understand the logic, I would suggest he spends less time comparing pancakes to crepes and more time reading Mancur Olson.Report

  15. Philip H says:

    It’s standard practice for liberals to look at the lack of public rail as a result of bad preferences by Americans who prefer their cars. I would suggest instead that we consider that the American appetite for local public transportation is tempered understandably by its excessive costs.

    If American cities could buy rail systems at European costs, they very well might. They might build systems that would put Europe’s to shame. But they can’t, so they don’t.

    Here in the American South, there’s an added dimension – public transportation was also used as a tool for maintaining segregation. Many southern cities still struggle with legacy transit systems whose routes were designed to keep black people from really moving about unless they were traveling to jobs serving white people. Cities that have overcome that routing have often seen a ridership decline, and thus a revenue loss.Report