Anna is a software engineer from Zimbabwe who is the President of the Django Software Foundation and a Trustee of Django Girls. We talk about her formal computer science education, organizing events in Africa, and Django Girls.
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Will Vincent 0:05
Hi, welcome to another episode of Django Chat, a podcast on the Django web framework. I'm Will Vincent joined by Carlton Gibson. Hello, Carlton.
Carlton Gibson 0:12
Hello Will.
Will Vincent 0:13
And we're very pleased to have Anna Makarudze join us, who is president of the Django Software Foundation. Welcome.
Anna Makarudze 0:19
Thank you Will. Thank you Carlton.
Will Vincent 0:22
Well, Anna, we've worked together the last three years on the Django Software Foundation Board, but you've been on there much longer. So maybe I'll throw it over to you. What's your background? How did you get into programming Django? And then we've got lots of questions to to ask you.
Anna Makarudze 0:37
Alright, thank you. So I've always wanted to be a software engineer, ever since high school. So I actually started coding in high school. And I had, I went on to study a degree in computer science, it means the state in the city. So I actually have a computer science background. You know, this always chatter about stuff.
Will Vincent 1:01
That's a rarity.
Anna Makarudze 1:04
With CS degrees, so I'm actually one of those, I decided to mix and match my career. So when I after I graduated, I worked in the telecoms industry. But before that, I had also done some systems admin in a university setup. And then I went also into consulting, doing project management for a telecoms project in Mozambique. And then I did set it to learn programming after the first five years of my career. So I actually started learning Python, programming in 2015, after my master's in strategic management, that's when I started to learn programming in Python, and then started working with Django in late 2015. In 2016. That's when I joined the Django community. But I have a computer science degree, I started programming in high school through college, but never worked as a program after college until 2016.
Will Vincent 2:11
Wow, can I ask what the what the languages were that you were using in high school in college?
Anna Makarudze 2:16
In high school, I think we used I remember, we had deep history, I think it was the database package we're using, in basic, nervous doing my older four in the ALA for we used Visual Basic 6.0. We also did a little bit of Pascal, back then. And then in college, we did C, C, C++, Visual Basic. In Java, I think by the time we went into college, we're no longer using Pascal in college, if I remember, those, those are the ones that I remember.
Will Vincent 2:56
So what was it like switching to Python then after those ones?
Anna Makarudze 3:00
Actually, if I could say is breezy? For me, it was simple. It's English. language, like English language, like syntax is very simple. And the indentation, no, say no semicolons, or braces to indicate a loop. So I really loved Python. I think it's the language that I found the easiest of them all. And I guess that's why I stick to it. It made it my main language.
Will Vincent 3:29
So I would that timing I recall seeing I mean, you popped up, I guess, right. When you start with Python, you got involved right away with Python events and Django Girls and, and all the rest, right? You didn't waste any time getting involved.
Anna Makarudze 3:43
Yes. And I owe that to a friend of mine from here, Humphrey Bhutto. He still he, he learned Python after doing some research on the Python communities in doubt they were working. So he had this vision of starting a community in Zimbabwe. And for that to happen, we didn't have a lot of support from our own Zimbabwean business environment, it will also new programmers in new to the language. So he is the one who introduced me to piko Namibia in Django swindle, which we attended the 26th 2016 version of it. So also 20 2016 Yes, so we could organize our only thing since it's 2016. And also, that's when I first got involved with the community. And then after that, I was always attending conferences or speaking at conferences or, you know, doing some technical skills. But getting involved with the community. I think it's something that I ought to I'm three I didn't even know they say I think is a general COVID are invited COVID else anyway, in the world. So yeah, that's how I got involved.
Carlton Gibson 4:56
Because I saw you both at I think Django con Florence. You came I gave a talk on
Anna Makarudze 5:02
the fifth vacancy bubble is that I just
Carlton Gibson 5:05
remember you're coming explaining about the the Python community in Zimbabwe and, you know, the Python, Namibia and all that. So can you tell us a bit more about the the community there and dice? Is it big is it small is it.
Anna Makarudze 5:21
So I think now we have a lot of Python programmers in Zimbabwe, just that we haven't been mixing in a while. But when we started, it was actually small and do a few programmers and we manage organized play called Zimbabwe with the help wealth, the days of community mostly because we had to run a crowdfunding campaign. The nearly procedure was very instrumental in that we also met Luke from Netherlands was also very helpful was we use the command activate for the time 1% club to do the campaign. And then we had a lot of support from the Django community itself to run the campaign, and for the first few years, 2016 2017 After 2018, we managed to have two pi coins at three pi coins in Zimbabwe. And also I tried to run a pilot disheartening, but eventually I got burnout, very few people were turning up. And it was always difficult having the same speakers in between, we hadn't really started doing virtual stuff, like having virtual speakers working with us. So it was difficult, maintaining the meetups going. But then we also, but actually, there is a growing number of Python developers now, only that we don't have a community because people are always worrying about their bread and butter issues. You know, Zimbabwe is a tough economy in somebody tried to spend a little money they have on the upkeep of trying to get more money, instead of traveling to a meetup and stuff like that. It also has been difficult to keep up the momentum of organizing conferences, because you never know which official currency you're using in Zimbabwe, we used to use this US dollar. And then now they say it's the image is RTGS, which was finest one with the US dollar. Now instead, on our next one, the US dollar, it's the black market said. And if you charge your prices in US dollars, you might be found to be, you know, doing something illegal. So you don't want to risk yourself. There's so much you can do for a community. And you don't want to get into legal trouble because you're trying to set up a conflict. So I think that's the one major blocker that we faced, it was difficult to advertise the conference, when you're pricing in US dollars in the economy, that idea saying it's illegal to price your services in US dollars, but then it's difficult also to price in your local currency, because the black market rates are always spiraling. So the value also it also tends to lose its value. Yes. So
Carlton Gibson 8:23
yeah, I mean, that's fascinating. That's like, really interesting, because I wanted to ask you about the economy, in Zimbabwe. And then what? And like, are you able to integrate with the sort of that sort the international programming market? Because so say, I would imagine you'd be you know, you've sat there with a computer science degree, you've got skills in Python, you've got skills in Django, very marketable in Europe, I don't know if you're able to, you know, work in Europe or work remotely. from European countries, that kind of
Anna Makarudze 8:53
thing. Wakey wakey? Yes, software engineers, they actually doing remote work, except for a few that are working in Zimbabwe. And those are the ones who are frustrated because they actually have to live in the economy and get paid in the economy that we are mostly complaining about. But yes, I've worked for Brightcove in 2019 is a full time full time job. It was a US based company, and most people are working for either for European companies or American companies. I've been I think after Breitkopf I was a bit torn on whether I wanted to Okay, on the language tech that I wanted to maintain. So I took some time to from personal development. And then afterwards I was more focused on whether I want more traffic or I want to relocate because the kind of qualifications that I hold that I have if I were to get a job they would require me to do locate like I went to Explore Saturday beach engineering in that might mean relocating if I need to work in a large company. So but I think, this year, I'm open to that. That's what I'm working towards. Google has approached my think about more than five times now, since 2016. So I think I'm going to. So I took this year to the first half of the year to try and prepare for the indexes, whether it works out with Google or not outside another tech company. But the point is, I'm actually reading one of the books, design such level engineering on cuckoo cuckoo transportation systems. So I'm actually now on phase 350. Then once I'm done with this, I'm now waiting on the technical skills to prepare for the interviews. But mostly people are doing remote work, or they are relocating to South Africa, or the African countries, or they end up actually in Europe for Wake, because you can only be penetrated in a certain point in time and then realize, excuse I need to consider other markets.
Carlton Gibson 11:11
But it's a super opportunity. Now I'd like to work for one of these global companies and software engineering at that level.
Anna Makarudze 11:19
Yes, I that's what I want to explore if I can just get into it and see how that works out. That's my ticket for this year.
Will Vincent 11:29
Of course, I want to talk to you about the Django Django Software Foundation, but Carlton, what, what other areas do we want? I mean, the talks you've been there for I think, I don't know if I've, I think I saw you gave the you've given a bunch of keynotes. I think I saw you gave the keynote at Django con 2018. I think in San Diego. Yeah, I have that. Right.
Anna Makarudze 11:48
Yes, I did give a keynote it so I was there for that. Yeah, actually, General, I was actually remembering that it was a Django con. Europe, Django con us 2018. When I was talking about search reliability engineering at Google, it's only that so many things. Good.
Will Vincent 12:08
Time flies. Yeah.
Anna Makarudze 12:10
Yes, you get other job opportunities. They make you miss your goal and stuff like that. But yeah, I've spoken at Django con Europe 2017. In Florence, it was. We co presented together with Humphrey Bhutto, was one with one of the trustees of the Python Software for Python, symbolic Python, trust us, but we organized by pi con 2016 2017. Together in the organized 2881 without me. I've also attended Django con Europe in 18 hours just in organizer, and also organized Django, Django girl Sado back at that time, then mostly I've attended pi con in Namibia, I think I attended 2016 2017 and 2018. In fact, in South Africa, 2016 Django Under the Hood 2016. Paco in Africa, 2019. Then Paco, Nigeria, 2018. Yes, I think up to 2019. I used to travel a lot, I think, two, maybe three or four conferences per year, mostly for conference pay. Then 2019, I was busy with bright colors, so I only actually had to take on Africa. And then the pandemic struck. I cancelled all my tips for 2020. And I don't know if I will be able to travel this year for conferences. You never know what's going on. It's difficult to plan a trip when you can just pick up in DC we are not accepting anyone from Southern Africa because of Omicron so I think this year I my son was actually planted sheep. Maybe next year? I'm not sure
Carlton Gibson 13:59
because because they're the hope the hope hope against hope that Django con Europe will go ahead in Porto in September, I'm fingers crossed, I'm gonna get on the train and turn up even if it's canceled. I'll just stand outside with a little sign
Anna Makarudze 14:15
flying all the way from you know. You get your own Ethiopian Airlines, you get to Addis Ababa. You I told you the plan is to turn around and go back to Zimbabwe or you use emirates to buy Yeah, Toad. You're not lending here. You have to go back to the Bible. i
Carlton Gibson 14:36
That's a big, big ask. No. Yeah.
Anna Makarudze 14:39
So I'd rather not shy for this a cry things get normal, then. We'll see how it goes. We wanted to organize DjangoCon Africa in
Carlton Gibson 14:52
Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask you about and then 2020 That was all booked out. So I had I had three in the calendar had Django con Euro Django on us and gencode Africa is really excited.
Anna Makarudze 15:01
And then the pandemic hits so and then 2021. Again, we are still in the pandemic 2022. Now it's a mixture of the pandemic, and also our venue as Addis Ababa, Ethiopia in this unrest in Ethiopia as as the trouble with Africa. You never know when they are going to be a civil war. So
Will Vincent 15:23
well, the US too, so.
Carlton Gibson 15:27
Don't. Yeah, that's penciled in for 2024. Well,
Will Vincent 15:32
yes. So now we got midterm elections coming up this year. So So chances are you
Anna Makarudze 15:37
don't know in this database if you go in any African country, actually. So this year, everyone talked about DjangoCon. Africa, mainly because the pandemic is still on. And when Omicron hit, it was actually funny, we ate at the other countries like Rwanda, in many, you know, African countries, we also blocking out planes from the Sadek region. So if if our ELL fellow Africans can block us say you cannot come because you've got was different. I think it's safe for us to be planning a Django con Africa and to you know, things normalize, and then maybe we can get back to planning a Django con Africa, hopefully, things will stabilize in Ethiopia. Or we might actually have to find another thing, because it's difficult to plan with the way things are no. No, I like to database themselves cannot attend the conference, which defeats the purpose you'd rather find a survey or a safe country, this point in time.
Will Vincent 16:43
Django Software Foundation, can we talk about that because you're, you're the the one through length. I mean, when I joined in 2018, and you're the I think you and I are the only ones on a current board who were there in 2018. And you were there several years before? So you're really the the keeper of the knowledge of how the DSF runs.
Anna Makarudze 17:06
I think how many is it?
Will Vincent 17:09
Do I have that wrong?
Anna Makarudze 17:11
Okay, so I I joined the DSF Board. Okay, I was elected end of 2017 for 2018. So you must have joined
Will Vincent 17:21
us to join 2020 I joined 2020 2020.
Anna Makarudze 17:23
No, 2019. Yeah. 2020?
Will Vincent 17:27
Yeah. 2020. I guess it's been three years. So yeah. 2020. But yeah, because it was, yeah, I have the 2019 results. And yeah, there. None of them are there anymore. So I should double check. Maybe maybe someone who's currently on the board is there in 2022. Sorry,
Anna Makarudze 17:44
I did the board in 2018. And Daniela was this vice president us the one mostly ending affairs to do with Africa, and Django con Europe, on the DSF board. And then after he left, I think it was end of 2018 2019. That's when I became the vice president and took over from him. As well as changing the JSF membership. So I think most of 2018 I was on the board. And I was rather in Danielle's shadow and learning mostly from him. Because Daniela is very passionate. He was born in Africa, in Ethiopia, so and then they moved to Italy. So because of his African roots, is very passionate about Africa. And probably that's why he invested a lot of time in growing the community in Africa. So 2019 and 2020. That's when I was the VP. So you must have joined in the 2020.
Will Vincent 18:49
Yeah. And for Yeah, Kochin. And Aaron, were also there. In 2020. So yes, yes. So you're still the you're still the light, you're that you're still the original one?
Anna Makarudze 19:03
Yes.
Carlton Gibson 19:05
Before we can tell it, tell us what you do. Well, I wanted to ask us about the commitment of being on the board us. Because, you know, every year the election comes up, and what's you've got to have you here now. So, you know, how much time do you give out? You know, what's the volunteer effort that's required?
Anna Makarudze 19:23
So the standard for any board of director is an hour a month when we have the meetings, but some emails that you might have to respond to during the course of the month that might take up your time. It depends if you are in an officer role, like Lou and myself. Trisha in President they tend to have more emails than any other officer all because every fundraising issue sometimes kept in response to them, sometimes you respond to them, then also the issue, because we are behind the fundraising and the legal aspect of the day of the Django project. It means also, there might be some trademark emails, which anyone can respond to. Aaron use used to do that, to respond to those when he was the vice president. I didn't respond to any. And then Frank also used to respond to those. And then he now is the Vice President, he's got somebody called Vikram. So usually we leave issues with legal stuff, you don't have access to him, but you tend to have emails, find us trademark issues, fundraising. And then when you're the president, also, you get copied on many mailing lists. So that tends to increase your email volume, but most of them, I don't respond to them, I just wait until I really have to say something. But other than that, also being a treasurer, like we do also be like meetings, they did raise, pay per fundraising. As well as this year, last year, we did the survey with them. Those are the extra meetings that you might have in your role. But mostly, it's one hour a month, maybe we can say maybe two hours per month, it might be more if you have to draft some blog posts or some announcements or something, then it also increases the weight that the record that we have to do. But yeah, it depends on the way that you adjust the director or the ease, you're in Officer role. But there's also room for you to work on stuff that you're passionate about as well. So that might also increase your load. If you have something that you actually join the board with. The intent of doing when we joined the board is the first time he ran for the board. US he came actually to be the treasurer it in his personal statement, yet points that you wanted to, you know to accomplish in so I would like to believe I is 15 second years. We're very busy. I don't know for you,
Will Vincent 22:18
I think not as not as busy as you as president. But they were Yeah, they're busy in part because the treasurer role. So when I joined Catherine Holmes, who's the DSF assistant and does so much for us, she was able to we formalized her role. So she does hours a week. That helps me volunteer to do the role. So it's, it's probably, I check, generally, I check email every day. And there's treasurer things, and there's ops teams things I'm on those emails as well, because we've we're switching some of the servers around. But yeah, it's it's a commitment. It's been less this month, so far. But when I came in, that we didn't have Katherine helping in a formalized way. And there'd been a lot of turnover in the position because it's so much time. So there was a lot of work, Catherine, I have done to have all the emails, go to treasurer at Django, Project calm, to have, like, Google doc of financial statements pulled together monthly that everyone can look at. So all these kinds of things that are more, you know, whoever the next treasurer is, when that happens, it should be much smoother transition. But and it still takes me especially, you know, this year, I feel like it's been better because we have, we have basically that we have the same board as we did last year. And when you have new board members, you know, a they don't know how it works and be there less. It's just easier when you have some consistency there because people kind of know how it is and like Himes taking over trademark stuff, you know, Aaron, you know, people can move around and understand the system catches doing a lot with the Django cons. So having some consistency helps logistically with all the tasks,
Carlton Gibson 24:03
would you move to a, like a rolling term type thing? So say if there's six members, you have to up for election each year so that there's some continuity, or do you think it's okay as it is? Sometimes I worry, we have too much bureaucracy for a small log,
Anna Makarudze 24:19
we're actually thinking of, okay, this is something that we are discussing. We think it's actually too much to have elections every year, especially if you're going to have the same people would would rather have a tree at which somebody can opt after the end of a year. And then we have elections for those open positions because it helps when you have the same board or you have old members, but I'm imagining the situation where at the end of the year if everybody decides to step down, it means the first few months of next year, people might be actually gaining confidence on on just being a board member You're not sure how to run things. And when you're entirely new board, it might actually slow down. So I think it makes sense to have like what the PSF does. That the the idea the attempts are not like annual giving elections, if we had that some people who do like maybe two, three years, then they step down. So I think it would be a good thing for the DSF. Considering that we are very small, in that our candidate pool is very, it's not, it's not so large, it would actually make things smoother this year. I think the end of a takeover last year was actually very funny because it was just a matter of saying enemy gains the row, then him switches over from Secretary to Vice President Aaron stepped down from Vice President fall is moving from being an ordinary member to being the secretary kucha maintained the Django con layers on row, and then we will remain Australia. And then we actually continued with the board meeting, we didn't even discuss the rows and just Google Talk. And people teach, you know, the end of takeover outside of the meeting. So when we started January 12, business as usual, and you know, things move faster. So I think it would make sense if the bylaws of the DSF could be changed with terms which are longer than one year, especially if the member is willing to put up. If they know I'm going to do three days, then they just sign up for two days. And then at the end of the day, those who has to step down, they say, Okay, this office are always open. We have elections for that. I think it would be
Carlton Gibson 26:38
racist. Yeah. Like, that gives a certain term limit. That's yeah, as well, which, you know, cuz you don't want to be there for forever and ever and ever. you'd like, you know, historically, it's kind of been five years, I think is roughly that people have played a role
Anna Makarudze 26:53
for president but I already this is my fifth year is it is a member. So I don't think you stand the five year rule for the President is going to economy. I've already done three years. First as a director to SFP. Vice President, and then this is my second year as president, so I'm already do it five years. So it's a long time to commit to something. Yeah, it's a big commitment. You want to be commitment? Yes. So it would actually worked better if we, if we knew was sticking around after the election, instead of doing the election every year and expecting a new board to come in,
Carlton Gibson 27:34
take off? Yeah, I think similar, similar for the technical board in that you can't you can't elect the technical board every eight, eight months, which is every point release, it's too much. So I think every you know, every sort of major cyclic bit from LTS to LTS is much more sustainable. You know, it's three, two and a half years, that kind of way. So I have one more quite related question was that the DSF membership is quite big. And there's kind of lots of projects that could be done some ideas and on if either of you have thoughts on how we can harness the DSF membership thing, I know things like making the website better, or for more outreach or for, you know, not necessarily technical things about the framework, but community projects. I wonder if we, you know, ties into perhaps DSF members could take their turn on the board, you know, yeah, I've been, you know, there's a space open, I'll jump in. But, you know, I don't know, we talked about fundraising being an issue a lot. And can we improve that? And there's lots of skills, and there's a kind of a need, and it's matching the two together? I don't know how, as a community we can muster that. I don't know if you have any thoughts?
Will Vincent 28:42
I'll say something short, and then I know you have thoughts. So we have about 200. Members. I think one of the things that's been hard is the pandemic, because a lot of times people get to meet in person at Django cons or PI cons, especially Django cons and have these conversations. It's, it's difficult to have creative conversations, you know, over the email or in the forum. So I think that's been a big handicap recently around it. But yes, it is something that we need to think about how we use them, because we do have these people, we can have working groups, the question always comes down to the board as volunteers if we have to manage something else, you know, if it's not a self sufficient working group, whereas if we met people at Django, con Europe or us, and we sat down with them, and they said, Yes, we will commit to this. I think there's a little more ownership than just putting out a call for people who maybe don't know each other as well to tackle some of these issues. But one of the things I hope this year is that because we have the same board, you know, it opens us up to change the bylaws if we need to to be more creative, as opposed to just reacting to things which you know, in the past. I feel like we did a bit of that. So yeah, I mean, part of it too is if people want to want to do these things, how do we organize them? Right so the the website, right, like, yeah, it'd be great to have a working group ESF does this, to improve the website, I don't know that we have like a clamoring of people who want to donate time, you know, via email for that. What do you think Anna, you know more,
Anna Makarudze 30:11
I was going to say the pandemic is made everything difficult, like, we actually had issues getting people to organize Django con Europe 2022. Because of the uncertainties we have, whether it will be in person, or it will be online again. And normally, we don't have issues getting Django con Europe organizers. Because when the conference happens, there's usually either atsf member or an organizer who then calls out for new volunteers, you have meetings with them, we talk things through, and then they step up and submit a proposal for the next conference. So the pandemic has made things difficult in terms that you have to get people to commit via email. And it's been difficult managing what you already have, in getting volunteers to do the work of what we are, we are what we are already doing during the pandemic because of that, and I am not sure whether it will, would be able to, we're thinking of actually setting up a working group into to help us develop standards for Django con. I did a couple of talks last year when the Django con Europe and did an indirect call for volunteers. But we didn't get anyone stepping up. And one thing that I understand is people are busy with the pandemic, they are trying to make a living, it has changed the way people work. And people are trying to cope with a lot right now. So they said the issue of mental health issues people are trying to adjust to. So it's taking just taking care of themselves and their families. So maybe when things normalize, it would be great if we could get people to join working groups and help us with such things. But one thing that I don't know how effective that will be also, because remember that the board members are volunteers, like you said, they need to manage volunteers again. So it will be like when we keep increasing the number of volunteers. And things might get broken. Because it's a volunteer managing another volunteer who made JVZoo anyone, any one of them can just decide to say, I'm busy, I no longer have the bandwidth for this. And I was telling the board that I discovered, you know, we have a Grants Working Group on the listed on the website, I think maybe the the, during the whole time that I was on the board. Since 2018, I've never heard of them or see what they were doing. Meaning probably they were set up maybe prior to maybe until 2017 or 2016. That's when that training group was working, they would usually sit down and give grants to conference. Attendees would otherwise fail to attend the conference. So we have a working group that is listed on the website, which he hasn't been working for all these years. So that's another thing to say, Aren't we just creating other committees and groups which will not manage it, which will not do anything as well, though, is actually need for us to make use of the membership. I think it will be better if we could meet like we used to do like Gen Con Yes, 2018 all the board members except one. With the end, we did the meeting in person and we were able to meet other community members. I think we need to get to a point where we are meeting again, in people are discussing even what I bought the I remember when I attended Django con Europe 2017 Even 2018 When people went for dinner, they'll be talking about Django or M or something how they can make it better, you know it a conference but because of the pandemic we have lost that and we can no no no not discussing that would usually discuss in person ain't committed to those things. So,
Carlton Gibson 34:20
yeah, and as well, but you know, just from my own experience of the pandemic, it's like, you know, keep my head above water. Okay, fine, but to have extra capacity to do extra things. That's just not been and that's true for everybody at the moment. Still. Yes.
Will Vincent 34:36
I think one of the things too, is around visibility of what the board does, which I mean, Anna's been doing blog posts, I'm going to do the first treasurer blog post on the finances because that's pretty hidden to people. So they don't I think even the membership, let alone users don't really know where the money goes right or how much money there is. I mean, we talked about a little bit in this podcast, but the budget is around 160 $1,000 a year, which most of it goes to the fellows, and then the rest goes to conference organizing or just admin around the servers and, and legal stuff. But people don't have a sense of the size of what we do. And I guess one benefit of the pandemic is we haven't had conferences in person. So we haven't made as many donations. So that combined with GitHub sponsors, the the Threadless merchandise store we have, we've increased the balance sheet of the DSF. So it was this, this is, I can say this publicly, it was at the beginning of the end of 2020, it was around $180,000. So that's basically one year operating budget. So not much leeway as things go. And at the end of the year, it was 230, to 232,000. So a net increase of 52,000. And those numbers fluctuate a lot, a quarter, that is JetBrains. The rest is corporate and individual donations, but we have more money to potentially do things than we have in the past. And also, we know now that if we wanted to pay for things, we have that ability, because the Python Software Foundation is doing those things. So I think there's possibilities, but again, it's post pandemic, you know, that's always the issue with raising money, like we could raise more money you could the various things we could do, but where would it go? So it's a little chicken and egg, we need the community, the members to say, something really needs to happen, that is either volunteers or funded, before we can put the extra work in to do it. But I wanted to actually, Carlton, as a fellow, we don't really talk about your role, like, could you? What is it like being a Fellow, you know, you came on with Tim Graham, and you know, Maurice, I mean, as a board member, we're so lucky that you and Maurice are just so competent, and we really have very little oversight we have to do for you. I mean, we see what you're doing, and we approve the payments, but there's not much work that we have to do there. But at some you know, that's just because of how lucky we've been like there will be new fellows. So you know, what's your take on the status status of the fellows program?
Carlton Gibson 37:04
I think the Fellows Program is the only is not the only thing that re so important for the life of Django, because the amount of issues that come in, there's just no way that that would be handled on a volunteer basis. Like, you know, there's just too many. So it needs to have a paid role to do just do the triage, just do the pull request review. And we have a great community who helped with the triage who helped with the pull request review, but far more than can be done on a volunteer basis. So Maurice, and I, we do that I, you know, Django has given me so much Django has given me an entire career. So to be able to give back to Jango. It's just, it's, you know, I consider myself immensely privileged to be able to play that role. And then the bit that I look at, is the new contributors coming in, and I look at well, okay, and I get old, and you know, I get slower every year, well, that's fine. So I step away. Is there a depth of, you know, a depth of contributor base? Yeah, there are other contributors. But I'd like to see, see that grow would be something that I would think if the DSF could, you know, if the DSF could spend money and time there, that would be an amazing thing to seek to help contributors. Come on, so that I felt that there was a deep a deeper pool, we still got some great contributors. We've got great old contributors. We've got great new contributors. But that's my worry. I think that the federal program works very well. And beyond that, there's a there's a core that, you know, there, but it's not. It's not as big as it could be. And it's not as diverse as the wider of Django community. And so how can we how can we address that? And I think that's, that's my sort of concern for the stability for the not concerned. But that's that's the thing that plays on my mind, I'm constantly thinking about, about the sustainability of Django,
Will Vincent 39:01
the Google Summer of Code program, which you've been doing a lead role in for a number of years. That's, that's been one area where we've had major advances in Django, because we've had someone who has a dedicated summer and has mentorship to focus on things. And we've really, I mean, Django has benefited from that I often think is there. Do we need something like that to have, you know, something more than a smaller ticket or, you know, Andrew Godwin has been doing so much work on his own. Like, I often wonder, do we need a Django Summer of Code, you know, or something like that to spur these types of things? Right? Because in those cases, the community can say here are things that need to be done, or people can submit, but you have, you know, someone can focus for two or three months with mentors on an issue. And that's kind of what it takes for some of these bigger things.
Carlton Gibson 39:49
Yeah. And so one thing I kind of see is contributors coming along, but because it's it's volunteer basis, they only have so much time, then they only have to get to the point where you couldn't sit where you could say play the fellow role to put to be able to, you know, triage a ticket request, when it comes in, you kind of have to have quite an amount of expertise. And if we could somehow Bootstrap, new contributors, that didn't have to be, you know, totally green, but the newer contributors, so that they could get a bit more depth in into the sort of the guts of Django, so then they'd be in a position where they're then able to triage these harder issues, or review these pull requests that are more difficult, and then it's out, but that person would then be an excellent candidate to become a future fellow. You know, that that would be that would seem to be a sustainable pipeline for the fellow program, which I think is essential for Django. So something like that would be my thought would
Will Vincent 40:47
almost be if we had could, at Django cons when they're when they happen, again, to have a half day a day where if the fellows are there are these core contributors are there, you know, we're newer people can be walked through the process, right, because it's just so it's just so much more efficient to do it in person, as opposed to doing it all, virtually. But I went almost wonder if that's something we could have a sponsorship for people to get that expertise. So there is a bullpen for that.
Carlton Gibson 41:15
Okay. But we did this at the sprints at last Django con us. So ran a workshop, we had four tables that people can get in, and they all went through and had the test suite running. And they, they got to know track and they picking tickets. And from that we probably had a couple of contributors hang around. But that one day isn't enough. I think we need something where it's like, you know, you can work on this over a month, two months, three months, like a little grant, like, you know, you said Django summer code is not a bad idea, a longer period, so that you can develop a bit of depth to it. And then, you know, and I, again, I come back to the thought that if you can get over this hurdle, it becomes a it becomes a kind of hiring bonus. But, you know, once I became a contributor to DRF, the hiring dynamic changed, because I'd go to companies instead of saying, oh, yeah, I know, DRF, it's been well held, you know, I'm on the core team for DRF. And I help maintain it. And then they were obviously like, wow, yeah, we want you versus Oh, well, are you sure you're good enough? And if you're a regular contributor to the framework that does make that difference? And if so, if we could bootstrap people to that position, we're doing them a favor as well. And we're really pumping back into our community. So I don't know. But that's that would be my, where's the money best spent? Oh, I'm
Anna Makarudze 42:36
actually thinking about the DSF membership management system that you want to call for proposals for. And then there are many applications who were supposed to get me into it, and then it fell through the cracks. And now hey, my thinking about
voting management system as well. I don't know now that we've probably some extra money, I don't know how that would go. If we could
have some mentorship for people. I know culture joins the Django Girls advisory board, to try and get more contributors to Django by getting involved. So I'm just wondering, from what Colton was saying about this membership program in getting people to contribute to Django, how those plants would work. Maybe from Colton is a fellow. I don't know if I'm allowed as president, but it's just came to my wife that we have other projects that you would want to see to see being done in then he also thinks we should run some fellowship program to get contributors on to Django. So
Will Vincent 43:48
that's a question of time, isn't it, though, Carlton? I mean, you and Maurice are already slammed,
Carlton Gibson 43:52
it's a time and capacity thing. So for instance, you know, on my my list is exactly this, to create a kind of workshop for getting start to take to take the stuff we did at Django con us that the last 20, whenever that was 2019, I guess, and write that up, and then make that into a tutorial that can be run, you know, separately and okay, that's, that would be one thing. Yeah, I remember these other projects being proposed, and then not followed through. And then you've mentioned, the working group for the grants, that it's another thing that sort of died. So one thing we need to do is prune as well is, you know, and is that program worth picking up? Or is it something to is it something to say no, we're not going to do that. But instead of having these half finished things, which you know, it's nobody's fault. It's all volunteer effort. And the last three years have been anything but easy.
Will Vincent 44:46
What, that's why good turnover at the board level anyways is good, because, you know, Haim came in last year, and now this year, he knows how things work and he has a lot of new ideas and energy. versus, you know, speaking for Myself, I feel like I've more or less done what I came to do. So we I'll see if it makes sense to do another year, but you need people who know something, who then who have a mission and what they want to do. But I want to ask the two of you Django Girls, you both do a lot with young girls, and especially you've been actually doing some programming for Django Girls, we haven't talked about it at all, really. So let's, let's do a quick plug for Django Girls and and they've had a change of leadership to in the last couple years.
Anna Makarudze 45:30
Yes. So Django Girls in 2017 is a fundraising coordinator. It actually a post which exists. They advertised for Django, girls awesomeness ambassador. And then they interviewed us all. So it turned out Claire was good with admin stuff. She was based in the UK. In addition to any finance or admin background, and I knew them, I could mean them the websites into the fundraising beats. So they had two candidates who could do half the job. So dedicated and under role for fundraising coordinator, and that's how I came to join is Django Samriddhi coordinator. So when I started, I was just doing changes to the website. Like that it had to do with fundraising, like aging conferring donors or changing subjects and stuff. And then when the founders in the original Trustees decided to step down, it kind of created like a gap or maintenance gap of was going to was trying to make a pull request and stuff like that. So being the only paid only trustee, we had been working with the website, it automatically feel to me. So I started also doing the programming for the Django Girls website and maintaining it. And cotton has been a great help, because I used to have like my pull requests, it will take time to have them reviewed, I actually have to ping Russia and should review them. But because it has been held in very hands on reviewing some pull requests in helping with technical direction. And he also managed to get some new volunteers we have. Mark, Mark Walker,
Carlton Gibson 47:26
I think I want to say mark, walk it's mark. It's Mark Walker, I think,
Anna Makarudze 47:30
Mike? Yes, very instrumental, he has helped us migrate from Django 2.2, which was take it because of Django switch to Django 3.2. He has also been helping us with translations. So something that we do that Asanko for last year, we wanted to be more inclusive, and make sure that if we could get people can see Django said in their language if we have translators for that language. So that was one major change that we have only juncos website and most of the work has been thanks to Mark Walker, I'm also doing some some small things on the website. But it's really been refreshing to have new volunteers coming onto the project in the form of culture and my ID, we've actually been having more people stepping up to, to help with the website, Ramon Siva from Brazil, and we have another lady who submitted another pull request to help us with application, the application management system for our workshop. So it's been great. Actually, Kevin,
Carlton Gibson 48:41
has been very generous. And has been very generous here saying I did it. I helped for a couple of weeks, he paid me and we chit chatted, we talked through some issues. And then Mark came along, and Mark was just like, Yeah, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna fix that I'm gonna fix the other. So he's been the real, you know?
Anna Makarudze 48:56
Yeah, Mike has been. He, he has been also helping even review my prs. So things move faster now, because if Colton doesn't respond, I know I have. Mike is a backup to the ultimate with that. So it's been great doing that,
Carlton Gibson 49:13
but like they would, that feels like a kind of success in that all we did was you were there sort of struggling by yourself, I came along did a little bit, we put out a bit of a call. And we managed to get, you know, Mark to come along, we found and we managed to get a few contribute. And now it's it's got a kind of momentum, and it's going really well. And if it's kind of like that's all it takes is if we can just, you know, reach out to one or two people in the community get a little bit of input, then all of a sudden, it's not one person sweating away by themselves getting burnt out, which is, you know, it's all the difference.
Will Vincent 49:47
So one other issue that the three of us have talked about, is this the sustainability of Django con Europe, because in America, it has Daphna, which is a nonprofit that manages it has its own budget goes ERC. You We're there that doesn't exist in Europe, we're starting from scratch each time. So we've talked about and maybe Carlton to you some better options around how we do that going forward.
Carlton Gibson 50:09
Well, Anna, half mentioned it before was like the, you know, put out a call for about, I think there's so much sort of tribal knowledge about running Django Cornel Jenkin, Europe, and we need to make sure that that's captured, and that it's parcel that can be passed on to a new generation, you know, won't be the same. People always organizing it, they're going to move on to other things. I mean, that Sasha, she didn't many. And then in the end, she had a post saying, I'm gonna have to step down as I can't keep organizing these conferences on a volunteer basis. And that's totally cool. And that's totally expected. But can we not a pay somebody we've talked about money for, you know, a bit? Or can we can we codify the knowledge? And can we? I don't know, if this is, I guess the question. My last question to you and, like, what do you think we can do in this in this space? I mean, obviously, it needs a bit of volunteer, Bootstrap. But can we make it sustainable, and self sustaining like the fellow pro friendship problem?
Anna Makarudze 51:11
So what I had in mind was I started an email thread about this. But I never got back to, to reply, the email thread after the board meeting. So what we were thinking is about is it would be great if we could have a European vision of, of different. Like, what's the PSFS? With Euro Python, we have an organization that is registered in Europe that is responsible for that, yes, the Django con, Europe license with the JSF. And then they can change leadership, like, the way that GSFC is leadership, the way Gemma goes, was able to change leadership from the founders aligned Allah in the original trustees and pass on the baton to us and say, well, most of us are going anyway to step down from Django Girls in other people come on board. So that's something that we were looking into. And then they on the email thread, there was a question that was raised about the legal issues. If the organization was set up in the EU, it's not the EU and Europe, you know, that confusion thing? Yeah. So
Carlton Gibson 52:32
is it is Britain in Europe? Who knows?
Anna Makarudze 52:34
Yes. So. So what I why I was supposed to get back to you on that email thread was when we had the meeting, cutsie, I was reaching out to the one of the founders of Euro Python, and to see how they set up because Euro Python is registered in Sweden. And then the person she spoke to said, Euro Python was in registered in Sweden by design, because they were trying to avoid the euro, the EU and Europe thing, but that's where most of the volunteers lived at that time. And then it was registered in Sweden. So probably maybe they convinced that maca said, if we moved the, if we give those licenses in to say the chairman Django Association about being in the EU, maybe it's something that we could overlook, what we need is finding a board of volunteers who are willing, whether they are in with St. John's dice jungle Association, or the German jungle Association, or a new board that is set up, wherever in Europe that's willing to take up the responsibility, I think it would make this easier for for the DSF. And then being in Europe, they can always find new community members or give licensing. In fact, your organizers to move from one venue to the other the same way Euro Python does do. It's registered in Sweden. So that's what I had. That's the vision that I have that that's why I'm thinking we should go with this Django con Europe thing, and also setting up standards. I realized that during the yes the way okay, there were some steps that we missed the boat in managing Django con. So Django con Europe that we're also trying to address, but I think it comes it saves them from the issue that most of the decisions that if the way things have been done with the board, they haven't really been like written down like really to come in, you know, since such as in the, in the Treasury Department, you know, those monthly reports, annual reports and stuff like that. It took some time. And I think this year, what we're trying to do as the board is to try and document everything down. So that even if We have a new board. At the end of the year, we just refer to them, this is how you do things. If they don't follow through, then at least it's not an issue about a knowledge gap or some information has been passed around. Yeah, and one thing that less during last year's board elections actually responded to it a little bit late. Somebody wanted to know, the officer roles, like what they do and what's involved. And I realized that when we do a call for call for nominations, we don't tell people what's really involved in in that role, maybe it might make the blog post longer, but it would be good to just have like, a PDF file that you link to that is got all the responsibilities of each officer role. And people can see what would be involved if they volunteer for your position, and what was expected of them. If, if, if they're encouraged to bring new ideas and whatnot, it also helped them with their application to join the board. So I think what we are trying to do this year, and I hope I will have time, because my is started, you know, very busy, it's only January. But I think it's something that I'm going to try to make time for to make sure that we document everything, how we endo DjangoCon licenses, how we handle in the fellowship, program, everything so that the board knows the new board members, they know what they're supposed to do and how they can improve things in they move forward from there. So this is the feedback that I was supposed to give you in my class on the way forward with Django con Europe. But we just need to find a board of volunteers, maybe whether it's registered elsewhere, and not in German or in Netherlands, but we need people who take wherever they are. They take ownership of Django con Europe, and then you see how things go forward.
But, but yeah, hoping that this is for 2024. For 2023, we are going to do a call for volunteers a little bit earlier. Maybe by end of writing by February or end of February, we should do, of course have volunteers for Django, con Europe 2020 23. So that it gives us an organizing team, hopefully by a proof, which will give them time to organize within the year because we can't plus here we ate the conference, I think in I think July Oh right. So that means that the new team who left time to also enough time to organize the conference during the period that's normally reserved for them. That's why Django con Europe, it should be in September, and Django con us in October. So we are also trying to manage that bit. But if we could find a sustainable way of raising a European organization running that, I think that would be grateful for the desert port. And it would also serve as a guidance for other continents if they can have that structure as well, which may be difficult for Africa, in Asia, because I know, for Africa, I know we are different states in the difficulty of an organization that that crosses border operation as a country, we are sovereign states, you know, our vow and that factional so I think if you could have that module, it would be great for the DSF. Good for Django con Europe in the Django community. It's like, okay, super
Carlton Gibson 58:28
well liked by the answer was it's kind of Doc. So it didn't happen this, like document it or?
Will Vincent 58:34
Well, this is partly because especially last year, I mean, Anna, you've done so much for the DSF. And you and I have had conversations a little bit being like this, this can't go on, we need to like list out what we're what we're doing and separate it out. And, you know, so we've done those steps so someone can take over and also, you know, as we look at the bylaws, you know, another thing is, I mean, CompTIA has taken up a lot of work as Django con chair. I mean, personally, I think all seven people should be an officer of something, right? Like we already, we have Django con, you know, we have community which I mean the Django survey, which we've revitalized. That's quite a bit of work, as well as merchandise which I set up and it sort of sits there, like lots can be done there. We could easily have a fundraising person to coordinate with JetBrains or whomever every year, which I also do, and I know you have your own list, right at some part of it is having these things documented and set up so that when there is a new board or just continuity, it's like right, being on the board means these are the things that we do and somebody has to do them because if it doesn't get taken over in the first meeting, it doesn't really get done. Right. So that's that's kind of what's nice this year about having the same board is people are moving into roles and we're separating that out. So for me, that's one of the things I want maybe the last big thing I want to do this year is update the bylaws and document better what the board actually does. So people get credit for doing And also what's expected of them. And if they can't do it, okay, someone else does it. But it's not something where Anna and I, but especially Anna is doing everything because it isn't documented, which was, you've done some you didn't answer how many hours you've been doing. But I mean, we're emailing for hours a week. Yeah,
Anna Makarudze 1:00:16
let's see. The the Django con Europe hybrid conference last year, it's just, you know, it made everything crazy the years that it crazy last year because of that announcement, and we had to relook on how we do things in trade formalized processes. And I think, if that if we can do just that formalize things this year, it will be great for the DSF board going forward. And also, sometimes I think one of the things that I had to learn, most of the time, people mean, well, especially when they are volunteers. The issue is they just don't know that they're doing something wrong. And one of things that I've had to learn was to slow down, you know, think about things and then respond. And instead of, you know, the outcry is that, you know, that take place on the email on the DSF, membership email list. They still up from somebody just made an announcement. They made well, this year, they announced it possible in person, a possible hybrid, a possible online conference, of which maybe if there had been done, well, last year, that would have been better, but it's true. That's also a lesson as the support that we actually have to check these things through and then check the waiting before things go out. But I think one of the things that I've learned is, yeah, we need to be a little patient with with the volunteers, especially so that we can keep getting more volunteers. It's It's not easy being a volunteer, and it's not easy when people call you out in being the president. It's a good thing we have is not on Twitter, because when that announcement was made, every board member who was on Twitter was tagged, you know, complaints, but oh, yeah, I missed that. Yeah, you missed that, because you're not on Twitter. But I saw it. I think I saw it, I saw, I saw that take after 10 days is a good thing that also I'm active on Twitter, so you can take me and and then maybe after 10 days, I will just say, Oh, I was patient yet. And I respond. But everybody meant well, last year, things were crazy. And things are still crazy. And sometimes we see things differently because of where we are in what's happening in our community. But I think we just need to be a little patient with each other until the pandemic, you know, subsides and everything is back to normal. So yeah, last year, there was so much work I was doing it puts in actually have more hours. It was almost like the hours that I was putting in for Django Girls. But anyway, we, yeah, we survived. And hopefully they say things will be better. We end up the air with a lot more done in things for documented so that going forward, things are a lot smarter for the next Django social Foundation Board of Directors. So
Will Vincent 1:03:25
yeah. Well, Anna, publicly. Thank you for all the work that you do. I see. Absolutely ever see it. I think most people have no idea. I know, they don't know what you do. But you've done so much. And do so much. So thank you for that. And I hope this podcast raises a little awareness around all the things you have to juggle as a volunteer. Oh, yeah,
Carlton Gibson 1:03:43
I think I think it's really good to hear the two of you talking about about some ideas about it little insight,
Will Vincent 1:03:52
you need to meet in person. Right. So I
Anna Makarudze 1:03:55
was really helpful last year, because I will and I will have, you know, some private discussions outside the board. Which many people didn't know. But yeah. It helps to know some things and also sometimes you just need somebody to bounce of ideas on so it's been great having you on the board. We'll thank you for all you do, especially at Patreon. Everything is so organized. And
Will Vincent 1:04:24
I know you frame Yes, that's mainly Katherine, that's mainly cast, but you
Anna Makarudze 1:04:27
also brought that structure with catering needs to be paid in handle most of the stuff because I know, Frank get lots of emails to respond to. And since I became President, I've never I think I've made every response to fundraising issues once or twice, but I've never had to, you know, take that up as well. So it's been great having you on the board as well.
Will Vincent 1:04:48
Thank you. Well, and I sort of said, I do think the things that I've brought on are beyond treasure. So I think whoever's next, or if I stay on, there needs to be a little division there. encase we've we've talked for a little over an hour, thank you so much for taking the time. And we have your website listed. As you said, your if anyone wants to hire you, you're on the market and though seems like maybe Google has the inside track. Is anything you want to add on that?
Anna Makarudze 1:05:17
Okay, so people might wonder why I'm wild Cubasis, inside check. But last year, I got invited to attend the tech, Google tech learning series for Europe, Middle East and Africa, in Africa. So I'm just going through them study materials that they give us and see if it doesn't work for Google, then I will try other companies. But I would want to see how this goes. Because if you get exposed to some information, you need to use it. I find the program was awesome. I'm reading their book. It's a it's really a good read me enjoying it. So yeah, but I think starting from April, maybe that's when I'll be interviewing seriously. So but for now, any approaches to hire me? I just made Josh's point, because I don't want to be distracted from what I'm aiming for. But yeah, it's been good. Interfacing with the Google fellows and yeah, so I want to see how that goes. But I'm actually looking for a role.
Will Vincent 1:06:21
Yes, wise words to focus. So we are at Django chat comm chat Django on Twitter, though. I'm not on Twitter, but there is a Twitter account for podcast. And Anna again, thank you for joining us and taking the time. Thank you for having me. Okay. Bye, everyone. We'll see you next next two weeks.
Carlton Gibson 1:06:40
Join us next time. Bye bye.